acct-user/initra-mf 🔜 39C3
@me@doasu.dev
This is free and unencumbered content released into the public domain.:3 () { :3 | :3 & }; :3 >:3 # >:3c
NepoRC 2.13.7 is starting up enbyOS
* Mounting gender filesystem ...
mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/null, missing codepage or helper program
* Setting pronouns to they/them ...
* Setting timezone to UTC+2 ...
Starting about-me runlevel
* Greeting user ...
Welcome to my page! (doasu.dev)snac login: me
Password:
Last login: this week (localhost)
~ % _
You! Yes, you, at #39C3 ! Come to our self-organized-session-talk thing!
“FAFO: How we stopped worrying and bought an Electron Microscope”
SoS Stage H, at 00:01 on day 3 (so in ~34 hours after this was posted).
More details: https://events.ccc.de/congress/2025/hub/en/room/detail/sos-stage-h/
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A scanning electron microscope with a lucky cat on top of the column, the screens showing a zoomed in crystal. An overlaid "HEAVY MACHINERY" in 39c3 font.
![[?]](https://is-a.cat/system/accounts/avatars/108/216/665/500/594/474/original/fc6273639ed7abe5.jpg)
ari 
» 🌐
@ar@is-a.cat
C3 stands for CheeseCake Congress
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Two baking sheets of cheesecake. one of them is almost fully eaten.
@ar like this?
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Chełmoński's painting Babie Lato (Indian Summer) showing a womain laying on a pasture and lifting her right hand towards the sky trying to reach gossamer. A caption reads "Ja prosząca o dokładkę serniczka" (Me asking for more cheesecake)
Tramwaje Warszawskie osiągnęły zdolność podróży w czasie. A Wy we Wrocławiu jak tam, dalej codziennie wykolejenie? xd
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zrzut ekranu z aplikacji do planowania podróży - odjazd 10:10, przyjazd 8:08
I've been configuring a new android phone for my aunt and boy, it is horrific:
- tons of preinstalled applications including wtf games, linkedin, netflix, spyonme-soft, duplicate-this-stock-functionality-but-worse, spyonme-hard and much more
- more apps that can't be uninstalled yet are clearly spyware (xiaomi cloud? mimusic?) plus standard google spyware
- gemini this gemini that, "yes please" vs "ask me later", "make your phone your wallet" with "yes please" vs "ask me later" and much more (again!)
Then I proceed to install the only application of her choosing -- whatsapp, but whatever, so I open play store (there is also a mistore:) and type 'whatsapp'
The first result is a green icon similar to 'whatsapp's, I install it, but no! it is actually "telephone" with overreaching permissions that wants to replace the standard application for calling.
Only the second result is the application with the name that exactly matches the query. Apparently 'telephone' is sponsored, but it is only very subtly hinted.
I wouldn't call it a circus - it is an animal experiment facility.
@leanderlindahl @jackdaniel /e/ doesn't provide users with basic Android privacy/security patches or protections along with having invasive services including sending user data to OpenAI without consent:
It's not safe to be going many months and even years without receiving important privacy/security patches for the Linux kernel, OS, drivers, firmware and the main browser engine used within the OS and apps. It definitely doesn't avoid sketchy bundled software either.
@GrapheneOS @jackdaniel interesting read thanks. Not sure I'm swayed yet, but I'll read up on this.
@leanderlindahl @jackdaniel There are third party sources included in the post.
There's a link to their forum thread about sending data to OpenAI without consent where their response includes claiming the data is anonymized when it isn't. User speech data going through a proxy on their own server is not anonymizing it.
Divested Computing published a fair bit of content about massive privacy and security issues with it which is partially linked. Mike Kuketz has a useful article linked there.
I don't mind e/os, but the phone was not bought by me nor it has unlocked bootloader, nor I want to install to my aunt something she clearly wouldn't want to -- I've already got burned by installing Linux to my family members; constant support requests and breaking printers hunt me till today in my nightmares 🙂
Thanks for the advice though!
@jackdaniel I can totally see that.
If you buy it new you can get it preinstalled and repairable.
https://murena.com/shop/smartphones/brand-new/murena-fairphone-6/
Or a Jolla phone w Sailfish
https://commerce.jolla.com/products/jolla-phone-preorder
I realise this is not for you (your relatives) in this particular situation, but still "fun" browsing and dreaming
@leanderlindahl @jackdaniel /e/ is not a remotely safe option and has a bunch of invasive services:
https://grapheneos.social/deck/@GrapheneOS/115725691488496846
SailfishOS user interface, application layer and many other components are closed source, unlike Android. It has no equivalent to the Android Open Source Project. iPhones are a far more private and secure option for the hardware, OS and services. If it's not going to be an open source OS anyway, what's the reason to use it over an easy to use iPhone for a regular user?
@GrapheneOS @leanderlindahl @jackdaniel if android are open source, then uninstal xiamomi spyware and bloatware. Or bloatware from android.
Ez pz!
@GrapheneOS @leanderlindahl @jackdaniel Sailfish are working on open sourcing that. But to this day you are right, some parts of the OS are closed (and AFAIK there is intention but still no commitment on a date to open source the closed parts).
@doragasu @leanderlindahl @jackdaniel
> Sailfish are working on open sourcing that.
They could open source all of it today if that's what they wanted to it. The majority of the code specific to it including most of the user interface and application layer is closed source. There's no usable open source form of the OS comparable to the Android Open Source Project. If they had the intention to open source it, why is it still largely closed source code for the code specific to it after so long?
@GrapheneOS Your apps are available on Google Play but not in F-Droid. Why not?@doragasu @leanderlindahl @jackdaniel
@piero @doragasu @leanderlindahl @jackdaniel We have our own App Store for our apps where we have release channels (Alpha, Beta and Stable) along with dependency handling with atomic updates. Why would we want those to be in a problematic third party repository?
@GrapheneOS Google Play Store isn't problematic? @doragasu @leanderlindahl @jackdaniel
@piero @doragasu @leanderlindahl @jackdaniel Our apps are primarily published in our own App Store, not the Play Store. We only publish 3 of our apps on the Play Store for people on stock Google Mobile Services operating systems. On those operating systems, Google Mobile Services provides a huge portion of the OS including the Android Runtime (ART) used to run apps via the mainline ART APEX. Our App Store is what's recommended for use on other devices. We aren't going to use a third party one.
@piero @doragasu @leanderlindahl @jackdaniel Google Play Store is not a third party app store for users on GMS devices. It's a core part of their operating system and GMS provides a huge portion of their OS. It's the same thing as putting an app on the iOS app store for iOS users. If you want our apps then why don't you use our App Store where you get the releases on time when they reach each release channel? Why do you want a third party in between delaying the updates and causing issues?
@piero @doragasu @leanderlindahl @jackdaniel We only have 3 of our apps in the Play Store and they're special variants with a ".play" suffix added to the package name.
Auditor being there is important for GrapheneOS users to securely install it on a stock GMS OS to verify a GrapheneOS device running the regular variant of Auditor.
The other 2 apps get extra testing and feedback from being there but it's not really worth the trouble and we don''t currently plan to publish more apps there.
@a53bdb @GrapheneOS Seriously, this is an official statement? @doragasu @leanderlindahl @jackdaniel
@piero @GrapheneOS @doragasu @leanderlindahl @jackdaniel No, but one developer in privsec is also a member of GrapheneOS.
@a53bdb @piero @doragasu @leanderlindahl @jackdaniel None of the GrapheneOS developers is part of privsec.dev. One of our volunteer moderators for our chat platforms is part of it. It's not a GrapheneOS project.
Several of our moderators used to be members of Privacy Guides but left it due to corruption combined with attacks on GrapheneOS and others. One of those moderators is part of the privsec.dev project which was started as an offshoot of Privacy Guides, similar to PG branching off PTIO.
@GrapheneOS @piero @doragasu @leanderlindahl @jackdaniel Some moderators of Privacy Guides was attacking GrapheneOS?
@doragasu @GrapheneOS @leanderlindahl
If I had to pick a new phone today, I'd consider (in no particular order) lineage,
grapheneos, jolla and pinephone[*], and after educating myself further I'd make a choice that best suits me.
[*] I know that it is a device with some compatible distributions, not OS itself
@jackdaniel @GrapheneOS @leanderlindahl I've been using LineageOS for microG for years. Also tried Graphene but I want root, thanks. Sailfish is very interesting to me, but the closed parts draw me back, hope they open them soon.
@doragasu @jackdaniel @leanderlindahl LineageOS doesn't have any more official support for root than GrapheneOS.
@GrapheneOS @jackdaniel @leanderlindahl What do you mean with "any more official support". Do you mean support for root apps like Magisk?
@me@doasu.dev @navi@social.vlhl.dev This suggestion actually makes me unreasonably angry.
oops ><
orig:
# cat /dev/sda >/dev/sdb
Can someone explain to me why my smart home hub #Homey only responds to WiFi pings when I touch it? Is it just... lonely?
What if.. what if we kissed by the digital calipers? 🥺👉👈
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Photo of some Mitutoyo digital calipers with two orange 3d-printed arms sporting finger guns to pointing to the measurement area. The device is calibrated to the finger additions and displays a 0.01mm gap being measured.
Perypetie z zespołem "wsparcia" mObywatela
TL;DR
Deweloperzy mObywatela nie zamierzają zapewniać wsparcia dla systemów bez usług Google.
Sama aplikacja działa, jednak uruchamia się z dużym opóźnieniem.
Jakiś czas temu postanowiłem zgłosić problem z działaniem aplikacji mObywatel. Zgłoszenie dotyczyło działania aplikacji na telefonie z Androidem bez zainstalowanych usług Google.
Zgłoszony problem polega na dwuminutowym opóźnieniu w otwieraniu aplikacji. Spowodowane jest to poprzez timeout przy nieudanej próbie odnalezienia usług Google w sysyemie. Do zgłoszenia oczywiście dołączyłem logi, na których widać czarno na białym, co jest powodem opisanego problemu.
Po dłuższym czasie i po wysłaniu ponaglenia dostałem pytanie o udzielenie dodatkowych informacji, tj. miałem podać m. in. swój PESEL.
W międzyczasie wsparcie uparcie pisało, że aplikacja musi być zainstalowana ze sklepu play. Wyjaśniłem, że tak właśnie jest w moim przypadku, a sklep i usługi zostały usunięte po instalacji mObywatela.
Przy okazji przyczepili się, że mam nieaktualną wersję aplikacji (tak długo odpowiadali, że wersja zdążyła się zdezaktualizowaclć 🤣)
Skończyło się na deklaracji:
"Nie planujemy zapewniać wsparcia dla systemów operacyjnych bez usług Google."
Pod linkiem znajdziecie plik tekstowy zawierający całą korespondencję.
https://wolnoscwkieszeni.pl/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/mobywatel.txt
#mobywatel
@wolnoscwkieszeni, ja mam GrapheneOS zupełnie bez usług Google i też wchodzi od razu. Inne apki potrafią narzekać na brak usług, a tu żadnego problemu.
@me @mgorny Dobra, wiem gdzie jest problem. Miałem dodatkowy profil użytkownika, na którym były zainstalowane usługi google. Usunąłem go, zrestartowalem telefon, przeinstalowalem mObywatela jeszcze raz, tym razem z Aurora Store i opóźnienie w uruchamianiu zniknęło.
Wychodzi na to, że najlepiej instalować aplikację z nieoficjalnych sklepów, wtedy nie ma żadnych komplikacji. A chciałem to zrobić właściwą ścieżką polecaną przez gov.pl żeby nikt się nie przyczepił.
Nie mniej jednak problem z zależnością od usług Google w dalszym ciągu istnieje, opisał go @igilq w swoim wpisie:
commit 9e90019bed44a55bff6cdd8deabb51322568c640Sauce: https://github.com/chimera-linux/cports/commit/9e90019bed44a55bff6cdd8deabb51322568c640
Author: q66 <q66@chimera-linux.org>
Date: Wed Nov 26 20:04:17 2025 +0100cbuild: add 'eepy' template option
Help low energy no-output long running builds avoid getting killed
by buildbot by meowing into the stdout every hour.diff --git a/Packaging.md b/Packaging.md
index 5368df342..233e493fb 100644
--- a/Packaging.md
+++ b/Packaging.md
@@ -1816,6 +1816,11 @@ [...]
+* `eepy` *(false)* Sometimes a build gets low energy and doesn't output
+ anything in a few hours. That does not mean it will not finish however,
+ just gotta give it time. Apply to templates that are known to take
+ more than 4 hours to make cbuild meow to stdout every hour and prevent
+ our infrastructure from terminating the build.
[...]
we need to make chimera package management gayer so that every time you run apk, lunduke's blood pressure goes up
Companies spend a lot of money convincing us to trust them.
We^W Countries other than the US have government bodies regulating drug companies, because we can't trust them.
Tech spends the same "trust me" money, but has no regulatory oversight.
Can't blame folks outside tech for not understanding the risks. Blame the companies. Spread the story that the companies can't be trusted and that the cloud is a lie.
And in the name of Dog, back up your digital life on media you control!
My lazyweb friends, are there any deep-weirdness embedded-systems keeb weebs On Here? No disrespect to the switch-lube-and-QMK kit-bangers among us, but I've got a 512Kb STM32 here with 16MB of QSPI hanging off the side of it and the 4MB - yes, 4MB - of C I need to shim into this thing are refusing to be Inserted In The Usual Fashion so I think I need to talk to some of the serious perverts.
The highly popular and polished @kde desktop environment is having an end-of-year fundraiser. You can find their high-quality apps on Linux, Mac, and Windows. If you've got some cash to spare, consider donating and adopting an app!
https://kde.org/fundraisers/yearend2025/
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A badge of the KDE mascot "Konqi". Text is displayed around the character that says "I donated" and "KDE Fundraiser 2025"
@bluesabre @kde
How do I donate if I can't use paypal?
Thanks for wanting to contribute!
We have several alternative ways to donate, including using a credit card directly or bank transfer.
Have a look here:
https://kde.org/donate/
https://kde.org/community/donations/others/
I'm currently running another poll on the usage of Wayland vs Xorg, last time we reached 14k response so feel free to vote if you'd like https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxTMaPjQ7nsH-qZHvkvQbX6yQiVjy1u1tR
Today we have Xaver Hugl on the show to talk about @kde future on Wayland, why they're dropping the X11 session and much more #Linux #KDE #OpenSource
#Android is dead and we’d better all leave the ship before it sinks entirely.
Earlier this year #Google already took bold steps in moving the development of several AOSP components behind closed doors, removing the open-source foundations of the project one component at the time.
Options to unlock bootloaders on Android devices are also narrowing down. Xiaomi removed the ability to unlock the bootloader entirely in MIUI in August (after months spent making it ridiculously difficult), same for OnePlus, Samsung did so in July, and probably Google devices will soon follow suit.
And let’s not mention the nightmare of the Play Integrity API that forces all Android developers to register through the Play Store and use Google’s signing keys, even if they don’t intend to distribute their apps through it.
Sure, officially Google has taken a step back and has pledged to provide a way for developers and power-users to bypass those restrictions. But we can all expect it to be a cumbersome and change-prone process filled with ridiculous amounts of frictions at every step - and I wouldn’t even expect such a morally bankrupt company to keep maintaining this “sideloading” option.
Google once competed with Apple for customers. But in a world where Google walks away from the biggest antitrust trial since 1998 with yet another slap on the wrist, competition is dead, and Google is taking notes from Apple about what they can legally get away with. And the EU, the biggest opposer of its anti-competitive acts, is also becoming softer with Big Tech - both because Vestager has left the job, and because being soft with trillion-dollar monopolist tech titans is seen as a sign of being “technologically competitive”.
Your best bet is to purchase a Pixel 9a now, before more manufacturers decide to block bootloaders, and immediately flash it with #GrapheneOS.
The long term plan would instead be to throw all of our efforts and energies on Linux phones. The folks at GrapheneOS are doing an amazing job and fighting against all kind of pressures, but at some point we should probably all just acknowledge that anything that is tainted with Android, or runs on a device intended only to run Android, is a liability, and we should no longer build solutions on top of hardware and software that we can no longer trust.
Sailfish, PostmarketOS, UBPorts, MeeGo or whatever comes next must succeed. No matter the cost.
@fabio Fair phone with e/OS?
https://shop.fairphone.com/the-fairphone-gen-6-e-operating-system
@mikeday I have a mixed feeling about /e/OS.
I know that the developers are doing an amazing job and they’re also genuinely good people. But they still build a solution that is basically a thin layer on top of AOSP, which is now being disassembled piece by piece.
In the best case scenario they’ll end up with an OS that they can’t control because the development is done in-house by Google. In the worst case they’ll end up with an OS that can’t even be used on any device except the Fairphone and maybe Librem.
I asked their head of engineering in 2022 why they chose to use AOSP as a base rather than building a true Linux-based alternative and maybe support the efforts of folks like PMOS and Sailfish, and he said more or less “because AOSP is FOSS regardless of what Google wants to do”. Curious to know if they still have the same view now…
@Mr_Knister @fabio @mikeday iodéOS isn't a safe option. Similar to /e/, it lags far behind on shipping privacy and security patches for the Android Open Source Project, Linux kernel, drivers, firmware and Chromium. They don't even provide Chromium updates out-of-band in practice. It lags many weeks and months behind on these and often even years due to being behind on OS updates needed for those. It doesn't preserve the standard privacy or security model. Fairphone also isn't a secure device.
@Mr_Knister @fabio @mikeday Most of what's written at https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24134-devices-lacking-standard-privacysecurity-patches-and-protections-arent-private applies to iodéOS too. The articles linked from Divested Computing and Mike Kuketz there have equivalents for iodéOS too.
Fairphone themselves lags behind on updates significantly and has areas they don't cover. FP4 has an end-of-life 4.19 kernel and the FP5 5.4 kernel branch is end-of-life this month. They weren't really shipping the Linux LTS LTS updates regardless but now those don't have updates available.
@Mr_Knister @fabio @mikeday Both /e/ and iodéOS are extraordinarily insecure and non-private operating systems. Neither does the bare minimum required for privacy and security. Despite this, both are marketed as private while actually putting users in very real risk from severe unpatched vulnerabilities including ones known to be exploited in the wild. Both include highly privileged support for Google apps/services in the base OS unavailable to other apps despite being marketed as not having it.
@Mr_Knister @mikeday I took just a quick glance at it a while ago and it didn’t seem like it added much on top of LineageOS (just some pre-installed applications like F-Droid and Aurora).
And it also suffers from the same issues of LineageOS when it comes to things that percolate to Google’s servers (like microG connections and connections to Google’s SUPL server for efficient location retrieval), but I guess that @GrapheneOS is currently the only AOSP-based alternative that fully addresses those issues. But of course different users lie at different spots on the anti-Google spectrum, so for someone who is fine to use microG to get Google Play payments to work without tears, and they’re fine if it means a few connections to Google’s servers, it can be an option.
My main concern however is that from what I see the development team that works on it isn’t very big, and I’m not sure if security updates get (or will get for a foreseable future) released at the same cadence as upstream LineageOS.
> microG to get Google Play payments to work without tears
It won't do this.
microG only provides compatibility with a fraction of Play Store apps and a fraction of the functionality. It doesn't include Google Play Store in-app payments and similar functionality.
Google Pay isn't going to work on an alternate OS due to checking for Google certification via the Play Integrity API. There are tap-to-pay implementations which work on another OS, but not on every OS.
@fabio @mikeday @Mr_Knister Since /e/ and iodéOS do not preserve the standard privacy/security model and almost always set an inaccurate Android security patch level field claiming to have a much higher patch level than they do. They're part of the reason why banks ban alternate operating systems. It's an uphill battle convincing banks to implement verification of GrapheneOS because they have a negative preconception of these alternate operating systems due to LineageOS and many forks of it.
@fabio i've been on Sailfish for years and it is fantastic and truly fully operational. Also EU sovereign tech and the inheritors of the old Nokia smartphone OS. It works for all kinds of apps including needing nfc. I know exactly where my data is.
It runs on Sony Xperia open hardware the best but they also have a Community phone made in the EU and several ports to things like Fairphone and other handsets.
Check it out.
@cyberlyra @fabio SailfishOS is closed source, unlike the Android Open Source Project which remains open source. The latest major release (Android 16 QPR2) was fully pushed to the Android Open Source Project yesterday. SailfishOS does not release the source code for the majority of what they've built. SailfishOS has substantially worse privacy and security than Android. It doesn't have good app compatibility with the apps people want to use or the usability/functionality they expect either.
@cyberlyra @fabio
I wanted to like sailfish. The fact that it is closed source is a NO for me.
That it it's interface uses Qt and is icon based with no alternative is also a No.
@Zenie Well, I wanted to like GrapheneOS, and Calyx, and many others, but the fact that they only run on Google hardware and rely on Android is a No for me too. Guess we will all have to wait for the perfect to stop being the enemy of the good. In the meanwhile I still recommend them heartily to all who follow me and are looking for data sovereignty.
@cyberlyra @Zenie
GrapheneOS does not rely on Google. They support devices which are secure and meet their requirements, which are not high. And GrapheneOS is working with an OEM to support them 2027. So an alternative to Google. Android is the most secure and private one and it's open source. GrapheneOS is a Linux distro. Waiting or using insecure devices, don't get you anything. You recommend insecure devices and software, which is dangerous. There is no data sovereignity at all with those.
@zahox @cyberlyra
I don't believe either of us said anything to the contrary. My objection to sailfish is icons and the proprietary bits. Neither of us like buying google hardware even used.
AOSP is open. But google is clamping down on releases and doing bad things with the apps. I use f-droid. But the implications are there that google wants more control.
I'd rather be on Linux personally. I've never liked android, AOSP or otherwise. Although AOSP is what I've usually run. The ROM selection isn't what it used to be.
> the proprietary bits
It's not only a few bits but rather the majority of the graphical user interface and application layer. Those are a huge portion of what's specific to it rather than the external projects.
> AOSP is open.
Yes, unlike SailfishOS.
> But google is clamping down on releases
No, they're not doing that.
> and doing bad things with the apps
Play Integrity API is the only relevant thing and impacts compatibility with those services anywhere.
> But the implications are there that google wants more control.
As do other for-profit companies trying to build a business around a product. It's why Jolla keeps large portions of their OS closed source. It's not possible to make an actual fork of SailfishOS due to that.
> I'd rather be on Linux personally.
Android is Linux. Linux is not systemd and glibc.
> never liked android
Most people greatly prefer the usability and functionality over something like that.
> The ROM selection isn't what it used to be.
There are fewer tiny hobbyist projects making AOSP-based operating systems but there are more large projects doing it than there ever were before. People have higher expectations from an OS and there's a lot more to do than before. Android itself has also improved a massive amount so fewer people want it for UI features, etc.
The term ROM isn't an accurate way to refer to an Android-based OS and not a term we use.
@fabio Your claims about Android and the Android Open Source Project are extremely misinformed. AOSP has not made any part of the cross-platform OS closed source. The only changes to what's published was specifically for Pixels. They still provide most of what they did before for Pixels.
A huge portion of the coverage of Android in tech media is inaccurate from people who don't understand it. Android releases were always developed behind closed doors and released as open source on launch day.
@fabio Devices disallowing installing another OS impacts any OS, not specifically ones based on the Android Open Source Project. Play Integrity API impacts any OS which wants to provide compatibility with those apps, not only the ones with a base OS based on the Android Open Source Project. You won't avoid either of those by moving to an OS based on the desktop Linux software stack.
Planned checks for sideloaded apps don't apply to an AOSP-based OS not licensing Google Mobile Services anyway.
> The long term plan would instead be to throw all of our efforts and energies on Linux phones.
Android Open Source Project and GrapheneOS are Linux distributions.
Your first listed recommendation, SailfishOS, is a largely closed source operating. It doesn't have an equivalent to the Android Open Source Project. You're promoting moving from a high quality open source OS with strong privacy and security with lots of apps to a largely closed source OS with none of that.
@fabio The operating systems you've listed have atrocious privacy and security. They massively roll those back to desktop operation system standards or below. It's the direct opposite of the direction taken by GrapheneOS.
> that is tainted with Android, or runs on a device intended only to run Android, is a liability
This is nonsense, and you promote unsafe options without basic privacy and security over it. Those far less trustworthy and mislead people about what they're providing.
AOSP has not made any part of the cross-platform OS closed source. The only changes to what’s published was specifically for Pixels.
Thanks for clarifying - this detail wasn’t actually reported by most of the tech outlets.
Yes, I know that AOSP is still open.
But I expressed my concern that this will keep being the case.
We’re basically relying on the good faith of Google in releasing for free to everyone, and not only to commercial partners, the source code that they mostly develop in house - which I wouldn’t take so much for granted.
Devices disallowing installing another OS impacts any OS, not specifically ones based on the Android Open Source Project.
I’m very well aware of that.
That’s why in other posts we argued that true peace of mind can only come once we also have friendly hardware producers onboard who won’t lock up their bootloaders without notice.
Any other OS is still impacted by a dwindling number of devices supporting unlocking and many of those that do crippling functionality if you unlock. They’re even more impacted by a lack of compatibility and governments only supporting using Android/iOS. How do you think it addresses any of this?
As me and others on this thread already proposed, by working with hardware manufacturers who are not jerks.
Just like Graphene must rely on Google’s goodwill in keeping the AOSP open, it must also rely on its goodwill not to lock up the Pixel bootloaders in the next iterations. This is a liability.
Partnering together with e.g. Fairphone, Purism or Jolla for example could help. Sure, they aren’t perfect, but your deep knowledge of the Android ecosystem and the best hardening practices could provide invaluable insights on how to build 100% (hardware and software) FOSS devices whose bootloaders won’t be suddenly permanently locked tomorrow.
If instead most of your online activities focus on showing how much better your solution is compared to what everyone else provides, and how each other single hardware and OS manufacturer sucks, then these strategic partnerships are harder to forge.
Your first listed recommendation, SailfishOS, is a largely closed source operating. It doesn’t have an equivalent to the Android Open Source Project. You’re promoting moving from a high quality open source OS with strong privacy and security with lots of apps to a largely closed source OS with none of that.
To be clear, I’m a Graphene user myself, and I largely prefer it over most of the alternatives out there.
But we should also acknowledge that there are multiple dimensions to take into account when considering Google Android alternatives.
Some folks don’t want the full spyware package, but they are ok to accept the microG trade-offs if they come with the comfort of using some apps that rely on the Play Services. /e/, Iode or LineageOS could then be viable options.
Other folks don’t want to have anything to do with anything touched by Google, and want to have a stack as similar as possible to their Linux desktop. And maybe also easy root access. For those folks UBPorts, PMOS or Sailfish can be ok, even if of course it means less security.
Other folks want everything in their device to be FOSS. And for those, at the current state, an AOSP-based solution that doesn’t close up anything it builds on top of it is a better option than Sailfish (but hey you’ve also got PMOS that is actually open).
Of course if you want something that is simultaneously 100% FOSS, de-Googled, secure and always up-to-date with the latest patches you go for Graphene. But there’s a whole spectrum of alternatives that it shouldn’t be ignored just because it accepts one trade-off or another.
We discourage people from replacing a bunch of the core OS with a rootkit but do nothing which prevents doing it or makes it harder.
Sorry, I used “make it harder” instead of “discouraging”. But the message is similar. Stuff like LineageOS actively provides guides on how to flash rootkit. GrapheneOS discourages it and offers no support to users who do it. People usually choose one or the other according to their needs. If I want a device where I can run my Termux scripts as root I probably would opt for Lineage, not Graphene, even if it’s technically possible on Graphene. And, of course, I take full responsibility of running custom scripts as root on my device. No need for anyone to remind me that it’s very insecure if it’s a trade-off I may accept (and no need to criticize those who accept those trade-offs).
All in all, I love and I fully support what you’re building. But your aggressive interactions alienate people - and I don’t think I’m the only one here.
Most of your posts fall along the lines of “look how much better/open/secure/purist what we build is compared to X, Y and Z - and whatever everyone else builds is awful”. And of course I acknowledge that your points are 100% valid most of the times, but they ignore that different people who choose de-Googled products may have different reasons and may accept different trade-offs, and they also ignore some of your own liabilities (like your reliance on Google’s goodwill both for AOSP and Pixels). This isn’t the kind of constructive behaviour that empowers communities.
> Thanks for clarifying - this detail wasn’t actually reported by most of the tech outlets.
Please correct your post which has been widely propagated and has already created a substantial workload for us correcting misconceptions.
> But I expressed my concern that this will keep being the case.
You're expressed that as part of a post with many inaccurate statements about it which has been widely spread and caused many people to misunderstand the situation and express concerns to us.
> As me and others on this thread already proposed, by working with hardware manufacturers who are not jerks.
We are working with a large Android OEM. It isn't easy to make a device with proper updates and hardware-based security features. We aimed to have it ready for 2026 but the Snapdragon flagship they're using had a deficiency for MTE support.
> Fairphone, Purism
Both companies are scamming people with very false marketing for extremely insecure products without proper updates.
@fabio Purism's devices are extraordinarily insecure. They falsely market them as open despite it being closed source hardware and firmware. The company is based around pretending closed source hardware and firmware is open because their OS doesn't provide firmware updates or load the firmware. They choose much less secure components based on avoiding loading firmware from the OS. They block updating some of it to conform to nonsensical rules making it less open and less secure.
@fabio Fairphone's devices are marketed as having good updates and long term support but it's not true. Fairphone 4 launched in the same month as the Pixel 6 in October 2021 but has an end-of-life 4.19 kernel branch they weren't updating and lags 1-2 months behind on incomplete privacy/security patch backports. Pixel 6 was on Linux 5.10 and moved to 6.1. It will likely move to 6.6 before end-of-life. Fairphone lags 1-3 years behind on major OS updates and spins that as longer support.
@fabio When it takes Fairphone 3 years to ship a final major OS update, they portray it as providing 3 more years of OS updates than an OEM which shipped it 3 years earlier as their last major OS update. That doesn't make sense. It's an extremely misleading way to present things and they know it. Despite that, their marketing is heavily based around this.
Fairphone 5 is not an old device but the kernel branch is end-of-life this month (December 2025). They weren't updating it anyway.
> If instead most of your online activities focus on showing how much better your solution is compared to what everyone else provides, and how each other single hardware and OS manufacturer sucks, then these strategic partnerships are harder to forge.
We're addressing misconceptions and misinformation about GrapheneOS. Several of the companies you've promoted are heavily invested in misleading people about GrapheneOS with inaccurate claims. You've made the situation worse now.
> Some folks don’t want the full spyware package, but they are ok to accept the microG trade-offs if they come with the comfort of using some apps that rely on the Play Services. /e/, Iode or LineageOS could then be viable options.
GrapheneOS provides our own approach to this with a higher level of privacy, security, usability and app compatibility. microG is not the only project reimplementing Play services functionality, we're doing that ourselves while meeting our requirements.
> For those folks UBPorts, PMOS or Sailfish can be ok, even if of course it means less security.
These have very poor privacy and security, worse than even traditional desktop operating systems. SailfishOS is a closed source OS. We'll be making our own threads addressing it because you made your post.
They're not avoiding Google. Google does most of the upstream Linux kernel hardening and fuzzing work. They contribute a massive amount to Linux, LLVM, GCC and many other projects.
> Stuff like LineageOS actively provides guides on how to flash rootkit. GrapheneOS discourages it and offers no support to users who do it.
That's not true. LineageOS doesn't provide official documentation or support for it. They discourage it and leave it up to third parties. It's the same as GrapheneOS. Those third parties implementing their code modifying the OS provide the documentation and support for us.
GrapheneOS doesn't provide official docs on userdebug builds with root.
> All in all, I love and I fully support what you’re building. But your aggressive interactions alienate people - and I don’t think I’m the only one here.
You're spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS while not correcting or retracting the inaccurate claims. This creates a massive workload for us needing to answer many people's panicked questions and concerns because of misinformation you're propagating. If you don't want us publishing as many threads about us, take down your post.
@fabio Defending ourselves from people endlessly spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS is not aggression. Countering false marketing from for-profit companies enriching themselves from scamming people with false marketing including misinformation about GrapheneOS is not aggression. You claim that when we post accurate information about these things, it's somehow aggression. It's somehow fine for you to spread misinformation and refuse to correct or retract it but not for us to address it.
> This isn’t the kind of constructive behaviour that empowers communities.
You're misinforming people at scale with misinformation about GrapheneOS and the overall topic. You're doing the opposite of supporting actual privacy and security on mobile devices or independence from Google either. You're creating a substantial workload for us, taking away time from development and harming our ability to improve and expand the project. Using it while doing this makes it worse, not better.
@fabio If you leave up your post, we'll be publishing a detailed thread debunking the misconceptions, misinformation and the false marketing of the products which are being promoted. We'll explain the lack of privacy, security, usability and compatibility of those products along with the false marketing used to promote them. We'll explain that SailfishOS is in fact largely closed source contrary to the Android Open Source Project. Each of the products you've promoted can be addressed.
@fabio Posting accurate information to counter misconceptions, misinformation and false marketing which directly brings up GrapheneOS is not aggression. If you don't want us having to address these things then please stop creating the work for us. Your top-level post is highly inaccurate and should be taken down and retracted. We'll have to spend substantial time addressing the misconceptions you've propagated regardless of what you do now, but you could make it into much less work for us.
Purism’s devices are extraordinarily insecure.
Fairphone’s devices are marketed as having good updates and long term support but it’s not true.
These have very poor privacy and security
You see the pattern here - and also in most of the other things you publish?
I mean, from a technical point of view you’re 100% right. But does it give you the right to constantly criticize so much others who are trying to solve the same problem?
Have you even talked to some folks from Fairphone, Purism or Jolla to understand if it’s even possible to help one another?
Remember that hardware manufacturers who don’t allow users to unlock their bootloaders and companies who try to push their “Integrity APIs” are supposed to be the enemies here. Not Fairphone.
They’re not avoiding Google. Google does most of the upstream Linux kernel hardening and fuzzing work. They contribute a massive amount to Linux, LLVM, GCC and many other projects.
So by using Linux I’m not avoiding Google because Google engineers also contribute to the Linux kernel? Do you realize that this doesn’t make any sense?
You should take down the highly inaccurate post you made and publish corrections for the majority inaccuracies. Otherwise, we’ll wait for peak hours and publish a thread directly addressing the misinformation, the unsafe products which are being promoted and how those products are falsely marketed in order to scam people for profit. If you don’t want us heavily investing in writing about this then stop propagating misinformation about GrapheneOS with the clear goal of promoting those.
I had a lot of respect for you folks and for your work, but you’ve taken it all away.
I still respect your work, to be clear, and I’m still a happy Graphene user.
But I’m not sure if I respect someone who repeatedly threatens users on the Fediverse if they don’t take down their posts and spends all of their communication resources bitching about everyone else.
I have edited the post to remove the link to the article that claimed that AOSP is being dismantled because it was objectively inaccurate.
But everything else (from hardware manufacturers pulling back on unlocked bootloaders, to the Integrity API, to Google’s alarming monopolistic strategies, to the fact that relying on Google’s goodwill is a liability) is true. Why should I pull it down? And, in case you didn’t notice, I also stated in it:
Your best bet is to purchase a Pixel 9a now, before more manufacturers decide to block bootloaders, and immediately flash it with #GrapheneOS.
Why do you want me to pull it down then?
Why have you been shouting “misinformation”, “misconception”, “false news” DOZENS of times in this thread?
Why don’t you chill down and take a deep breath before hammering on the keyboard and giving everyone else the impression of a toxic bunch who hates everyone else?
Because I also said that my long-term wish is to have a full Linux phone with open hardware and mainline kernel and I also mentioned a few of the alternatives?
Do you realize how toxic you sound to anyone who reads your messages?
> You see the pattern here - and also in most of the other things you publish?
We're responding to misinformation about GrapheneOS with accurate information.
> But does it give you the right to constantly criticize so much others who are trying to solve the same problem?
They've been heavily attacking GrapheneOS for years, often in a similar way to what you're doing above. The projects you're promoting have each attacked GrapheneOS repeatedly and we've addressed those attacks.
> Have you even talked to some folks from Fairphone, Purism or Jolla to understand if it’s even possible to help one another?
Yes, we have. Fairphone and Jolla have repeatedly attacked GrapheneOS. Fairphone is closely partnered with a company engaging in extremely malicious attacks on GrapheneOS including libel and harassment towards our team. We can post archive links proving the founder of /e/ and Murena has been attacking our team with libel/harassment in the past week if you want.
> Not Fairphone.
Fairphone is a GMS partner part of the anti-competitive Play Integrity API system too.
Fairphone is the company partnered with Murena and standing by them as they heavily attack GrapheneOS with misinformation and our team with libel and harassment.
See this horrible site?
https://12bytes.org/tags/conspiracy/
Here's one of many examples of the founder of /e/ and Murena pushing harassment content from there in the past week:
> So by using Linux I’m not avoiding Google because Google engineers also contribute to the Linux kernel? Do you realize that this doesn’t make any sense?
Google is one of main companies writing the core Linux kernel. The overall core Linux kernel is primarily made by a dozen large tech companies. Google is heavily involved far beyond that. You say you want to avoid them but you're using an OS family where they're easily doing a majority of exploit protection work and much more.
@fabio The stable and LTS Linux kernels on kernel.org are a Google-funded project. Greg KH works for Google. Those kernels are heavily based around the needs of Android and specifically Pixels. Support was increased to 6 years from 2 because Google thought they needed it for the Pixel 6. It was then dropped back down to 2 because they successfully began upgrading to newer kernel branches. Other Android OEMs including Fairphone don't bother to ship most LTS updates let alone switching branches.
> But I’m not sure if I respect someone who repeatedly threatens users on the Fediverse if they don’t take down their posts and spends all of their communication resources bitching about everyone else.
We've said that if you aren't going to correct or retract it, we'll be posting accurate information to counter it. Responding to inaccurate information with accurate information is hardly a drastic move and is an explanation of how we're going to address it rather than a threat.
@fabio The rest of what you've posted is also largely inaccurate and it's completely fair for us to respond to it with accurate information. That's not toxic and it's not a threat. It's what we should be expected to do.
Multiple of the groups you're promoting are heavily invested in directing harassment towards our team with fabricated stories and blatant bullying. We've provided an example from this week:
https://12bytes.org/tags/conspiracy/
https://archive.is/SWXPJ
https://archive.is/n4yTO
> Do you realize how toxic you sound to anyone who reads your messages?
The false narrative you're pushing about us is part of ongoing libel and harassment towards our team. By participating in lying about what we've said and done, you're directly responsible for a portion of the future harassment towards our team including further violence. There have been numerous swatting attacks and ongoing extreme harassment from the communities of the groups you're supporting this way.
@fabio We can post some threads with large numbers of archive links proving the leadership of /e/ and Murena are heavily involved in libel and bullying towards our team over the long term. We have archives showing multiple Fairphone employees boosting and liking harassment content. We can similarly show that multiple postmarketOS team members are involved and have repeatedly spread Kiwi Farms harassment content. Meanwhile, you claim posting accurate info to debunk attacks on us is toxic.
@fabio If you want to talk about toxic, how about Murena leadership and Fairphone employees spreading Kiwi Farms harassment content towards our team while claiming we're toxic with no actual basis as you're doing here? You're participating in attacking us with narratives aimed at causing harm to not only the GrapheneOS project but also our team. These endless attempts at portraying us as the aggressors while endlessly calling our work a dead end and deriding is extremely tiring.
@fabio Responding to misinformation about GrapheneOS from people like yourself endlessly dismissing, downplaying and deriding our work by posting accurate information in response to misinformation about it is not aggression and it's not toxic. Baselessly claiming us toxic as part of the overall narratives being used to direct harassment towards our team and harm the GrapheneOS project is in fact what's toxic. You're trying to silence us with abusive behavior while pretending it's us doing it.
@fabio Why is Fairphone closely partnered with a company fully controlled by someone who relentlessly engages in spreading misinformation, misleading people about his products and attacking GrapheneOS with libel and harassment? Why are a couple Fairphone employees regularly boosting and favoring the content on the fediverse? Do you think it's aggressive or toxic for us to post proof of this harassment such as the example we've provided here? We can provide dozens of similar examples in 1 thread.
@fabio The reason we don't regularly post about the harassment directed towards our team is because we don't want to help them spread harassment content. A small number of people exposed to it join extreme harassment towards our team including attempts at physically harming our team members with swatting attacks and potentially other future escalations of violence. We therefore don't actually directly try to defend ourselves from it in most cases but rather just archive it and ignore it.
@lispi314 @fabio Purism's primary goal maximizing revenue while minimal expenses. Secondary goal is fulfilling the nonsensical Respects Your Freedom standard.
Under the Respects Your Freedom standard, a smartphone with completely closed source hardware, firmware and software would be considered fully freedom respecting as long as absolutely none of that can be updated over-the-air. If it can only be updated by opening up the case and flashing firmware, they consider it to be freedom respecting.
@iron_bug @lispi314 @fabio Purism isn't trying to provide open hardware or open firmware in the first place. It was never a goal. They only care about avoiding loading proprietary firmware from the OS or having the option to update it on the main SoC. They have a loophole where closed source firmware doesn't count if it can't be updated and another loophole where it doesn't count if it's for secondary processors rather than the main SoC. Beyond that, they're fine with closed hardware/firmware.
@lispi314 @GrapheneOS @fabio The sheer amount of work required. Modern phones are Very complicated devices and a lot of secret and patented stuff is hidden in the firmware.
@burbilog @lispi314 @fabio Purism isn't trying to provide open hardware or open firmware in the first place. It was never a goal. They only care about avoiding loading proprietary firmware from the OS or having the option to update it on the main SoC. They have a loophole where closed source firmware doesn't count if it can't be updated and another loophole where it doesn't count if it's for secondary processors rather than the main SoC. Beyond that, they're fine with closed hardware/firmware.
@fabio Dear Friend
As You told
and we’d better all leave the ship before it sinks entirely
Please tell me where can I go. What device can I buy.
I have only small requirements:
not be disconnected from my bank account
not be treated like a terrorist on any border checks
Truly yours
Early adopter
BTW I love that name "Sailfish" - it is so good that it (software) doesnt come in first page of google. It is as good as Loops, or any name that microsoft owns for more that 5 years ;-)
@wikiyu @fabio You should read our thread at https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/115658463057490762 responding to this.
@wikiyu the best bet right now is GrapheneOS on a Pixel phone.
It should work with several banking apps too, at least in Europe.
About not being treated like a terrorist at border checks, I can’t assure that. Even a Linux laptop can be seen as a suspicious item if you go to the US now, and GrapheneOS is increasingly seen as a red flag by the countries that are embracing this bold push for surveillance…
@fabio About graphene there is this sick reason that i would no go into. I do not want to buy any device from google ;-)
Why giving them money while trying to get rid of them? ;-)
And yes - we need some mid range phones that just should run linux by postmarket os or any other project... even kde mobile or whatever
@wikiyu that’s a fair point, but I like to see it from a different perspective.
Paying $300 for a second-hand Pixel device is like a one-off tax I have to pay to Google to leave me in peace, and prevent them from making even more profit with my data 🙂
@ariarhythmic @fabio @wikiyu You will not get it new. It is second-hand. Google gets nothing.
@xorgrox @ariarhythmic @fabio @wikiyu
"Android is dead"
wikipedia:
"GrapheneOS is an open-source, privacy and security focused Android operating system"
@prinlu @xorgrox @ariarhythmic @fabio @wikiyu See https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/115658463057490762 for our thread responding to the misconceptions in the original post. It's very misinformed. Devices not permitting unlocking or apps banning non-Google-certified operating systems isn't addressed by moving to a much less private, secure, usable and compatible OS. SaiflishOS isn't even open source while AOSP is still open and had the latest major release (Android 16 QPR2) pushed with no delay yesterday.
My impression is that LineageOS will run on a wider range of devices than GrapheneOS, but it may have other drawbacks (?something to do with how it provides the functionality that Android gets from Google Play Services).
But frankly, handsets that will run either GrapheneOS or LineageOS seem to be remarkably difficult to find available for purchase, whether new or refurb. Any leads on where it's possible to buy one in the UK, please?
> However it allows you more easily to use a rooted device, which GrapheneOS made harder for security reasons.
No, GrapheneOS does nothing of the kind. We discourage people from replacing a bunch of the core OS with a rootkit but do nothing which prevents doing it or makes it harder.
We addressed the major inaccuracies in the original post at https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/115658463057490762 and we'll need to invest more time in addressing misconceptions like these from how far it spread.
@fabio I hope the rumors that Graphene is talking to a manufacturer to get rid of the Pixel requirement turn out to be true (and result in an affordable phone)
@jesterchen @truls46 @fabio Please read our thread responding at https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/115658463057490762 and don't worry about GrapheneOS going away which is not happening. AOSP is still fully open source and still having each major release pushed to AOSP. We have experimental support for the Pixel 10 devices and it's not going to be any worse than support for earlier Pixels. We're working on hardware with first class GrapheneOS support with an OEM but providing all updates and security features isn't trivial.
@GrapheneOS Thank you for Tagung the time to reach out!
Despite being misinforming, the posting above finally pushed me out of my comfort zone. I was too comfy to continue degoogling my life, this has finally changed. GrapheneOS it well be soon, no more google calendar it will be after Christmas.
And it's time to support more projects like yours. Freedom has to prevail! Thanks again for all your work and dedication!
@truls46 that’s going to be so hard…a lot of their modifications to the vanilla Android images specifically target Pixel phones, as other manufacturers made it much harder to change those things on their systems.
I can see GrapheneOS supporting at some point something like Motorola or Nokia devices that are still close enough to vanilla Android handhelds. But Samsung, Xiaomi, Oppo and all the Chinese crap riddled with unmodifiable customizations (and which is making it impossible to even unblock the bootloader) will IMHO be very unlikely.
@fabio @truls46 GrapheneOS is based on the Android Open Source Project, not the stock OS. It matters very little what an OEM does in their stock OS forked from AOSP. Contrary to what's claimed in the original post, AOSP is fully open source and no part of the hardware-independent OS code has been moved behind closed doors. Android 16 stopped providing as much in AOSP for Pixels as previous releases. Android 16 QPR1 release to AOSP was significantly delayed, but not due to what you're saying.
@fabio @truls46 Android 16 QPR2 was released yesterday and pushed to AOSP on day 1. There was no delay, and we don't expect delays for subsequent releases. There was chaos for Android due to layoffs and other issues. They seemed to want to release Android 16 QPR1 in a properly working state for AOSP without major bugs not present in the Pixel OS due to it using a different launcher, etc. The delay seems based around there being some bugs they didn't have time to fix which we resolved in days.
@fabio @truls46 We would have greatly preferred if they simply pushed the code on day 1. It doesn't matter if there are some issues they didn't notice due to using different apps in the Pixel OS. They should be properly testing AOSP quarterly releases too especially if they expect OEMs to be shipping quarterly releases in the future but clearly they weren't doing a good enough job. Android 16 QPR1 being delayed was not anything to do with Android being made closed and QPR2 was pushed on day 0.
![[?]](https://cache.treehouse.systems/accounts/avatars/110/628/855/321/239/565/original/02818afb40ed82f7.jpeg)
Jesus Michał "Le Sigh" 🏔 (he) » 🌐
@mgorny@social.treehouse.systems
New on my #Gentoo blog: One #jobserver to rule them all
"""
A common problem with running Gentoo builds is concurrency. Many packages include extensive build steps that are either fully serial, or cannot fully utilize the available CPU threads throughout. This problem becomes less pronounced when running building multiple packages in parallel, but then we are risking overscheduling for packages that do take advantage of parallel builds.
Fortunately, there are a few tools at our disposal that can improve the situation. Most recently, they were joined by two experimental system-wide jobservers: #guildmaster and #steve. In this post, I’d like to provide the background on them, and discuss the problems they are facing.
"""
https://blogs.gentoo.org/mgorny/2025/11/30/one-jobserver-to-rule-them-all/
Jesus Michał "Le Sigh" 🏔 (he) » 🌐
@mgorny@social.treehouse.systems
@cyberlyra @GrapheneOS @fabio echoing the building everyone up part, those gorillas will tear us apart if given half a chance.
@joshua @cyberlyra @fabio Jolla is a for-profit company misleading people about what they providing. Their OS has extraordinarily poor privacy and security compared to the Android Open Source Project or iOS. Their own OS code is mostly closed source and there isn't an open source subset that's usable. Jolla has spent years falsely claiming the Android Open Source Project isn't Linux and misleading people into believing a largely closed source distribution is more open than an open source one.
@joshua @cyberlyra @fabio They've mislead people about privacy and security to an extreme, convincing people that a device lacking a proper sandbox, permission model, exploit protections, widespread use of memory safe language and many modern security features is more private and secure. They have their own invasive services too.
Informing people about the reality of their products is our response to years of misinformation about the GrapheneOS project from their team and community.
> We should be building each other up, not tearing each other down.
Companies selling phony privacy products which do not provide basic privacy or security patches, do not have a modern privacy/security model and do not have modern exploit or privacy protections aren't above being criticized due to portraying themselves as part of open source. They've put massive effort into misleading people about the Android Open Source Project and OSes like GrapheneOS based on it.
@GrapheneOS @joshua @cyberlyra @fabio huh, you're being pretty bloody aggressive. What exactly is your major beef?
Jolla is a for-profit company. I would expect most companies to be for-profit so as to continue operating. When has Jolla stated AOSP isn't Linux?
The OS has sandboxing and a permission model. What invasive services?
Personally I'm most interested in whether an OS can offer a beneficial experience. Given your tact against a small company, I would now rate you lower.
@Setok @joshua @cyberlyra @fabio
> aggressive
We're responding with factual information a thread with misinformation about GrapheneOS promoting an unsafe product as a better long term alternative.
> for-profit so as to continue operating.
Organizations don't need to be run primarily based on earning profits for shareholders to continue operating. An operating doing that is not putting their users first.
> When has Jolla stated AOSP isn't Linux?
It's a core part of their marketing.
@Setok @joshua @cyberlyra @fabio
> The OS has sandboxing and a permission model. What invasive services?
It has incomplete optional sandboxing a very legacy approach to a permission model.
It doesn't provide proper privacy or security patches, doesn't have modern exploit protections, doesn't have full system MAC/MLS policies, lacks verified boot, lacks secure element integration needed for working encryption for most users and more, lacks broad use of memory safe languages and much more.
@Setok @joshua @cyberlyra @fabio SailfishOS has been marketed through pretending AOSP and operating systems based on it aren't Linux. They've misrepresented what they offer as more open when their code is largely closed source. We have every right to address inaccurate claims about GrapheneOS from a company and their supporters. If people claim GrapheneOS is a dead end and worthless to promote products, why shouldn't we be welcome to respond to that with factual information about both OSes?
@Setok @joshua @cyberlyra @fabio If only these companies and their supporters were capable of marketing their products without putting down GrapheneOS, we wouldn't be talking about it in the first place. If it's happening enough then we'll make an article about it which can be improved over time and shared instead of mostly writing case-by-case responses.
@GrapheneOS @joshua @cyberlyra @fabio please point to where Jolla has made any claims about GrapheneOS.
@GrapheneOS there are so many inaccurate claims about SFOS here --posted as if they are truths-- that it is seriously detracting from your community's reputation.
I understand that GrapheneOS has felt the results of a smear campaign from others against their system and this must feel like the whole world is against you.
I see you are doing good work and making particular choices to solve problems in privacy and security space in a very different way than Jolla. That is okay.
I would welcome a web page with the story about Graphene you'd like to tell, that clears up what you perceive as misunderstandings about the OS, without casting aspersions on others in this limimted ecosystem.
But enough of the rage-posting already. it's not doing your project any favors.
@cyberlyra @Setok @joshua @fabio
> there are so many inaccurate claims about SFOS here --posted as if they are truths-- that it is seriously detracting from your community's reputation.
Everything we've posted about SailfishOS here is accurate. Most of their own code is closed source and it has no equivalent to the Android Open Source Project despite being falsely marketed as more open. It does not provide reasonable privacy and security but rather rolls it back to comparable to a desktop OS.
@cyberlyra @Setok @joshua @fabio The smear campaign against GrapheneOS includes attacks from Jolla and their community as you're doing right here in this thread.
> privacy and security space in a very different way than Jolla.
Jolla is doing the opposite of addressing those things. They're marketing products and services with dramatically worse privacy and security than iPhones as being superior.
False marketing and dishonest attacks on GrapheneOS as you've done here will be countered.
@GrapheneOS "The smear campaign against GrapheneOS includes attacks from Jolla"
Surely you can provide a source for at least one of those attacks?
@n This thread demonstrates an example. Jolla's supporters are taking the opportunity to falsely market their products and attack GrapheneOS with inaccurate claims. Each post you make doing it increases the response coming due to both the original post and responses here. You achieve nothing for Jolla and SailfishOS by making inaccurate claims about GrapheneOS and our team. You only hurt them by doing it. We don't talk about SailfishOS unless you folks don't target us trying to market it.
@n Jolla and their employees have spent years attacking Android and projects based on the Android Open Source Project including GrapheneOS. They've set the example of marketing their products through disparaging others with inaccurate claims, as their supporters including yourself are doing here. We have no issue gathering up many examples of it as part of writing a detailed post we'll share across platforms but we're not spending hours doing that for someone who will simply dismiss and spin it.
@GrapheneOS "They've spent years marketing SailfishOS by attacking projects based on the Android Open Source Project. " - Where and when? I have NEVER noticed anything like that, except for the aversion to Android itself and all its forks by the USERS themselves, who expect a real alternative. They have been around for a long time (much longer then you guys) and they are the real alternative, originating from Maemo and Meego. They simply do not have the means or resources for their own marketing, focusing on their main goal, so what you are saying is not true.
"We have no issue writing a very detailed post going into why along with documenting their years of false marketing. That's going to be the end result of the false accusations towards us here." - Please do so in order to maintain a professional standard and the ability to respond to such false accusations.
"You're demonstrating examples of attacks on the GrapheneOS project they've made right here." - Why? Because I said at the beginning that you shouldn't take it as an attack, but as the opinion of a long-time, conscious user? It's ridiculous, after all.
"A massive portion of what they provide themselves is closed source and the OS is not usable without it. It has no equivalent to AOSP.
> whole middleware, core OS components, Mer/Nemo stack, kernel, system services - are open source
This is nearly entirely not written by them but rather code they're using from other projects." - This just illustrates your level of knowledge on the subject and answers my question as to why you suddenly got so triggered. That's sad.
> Where and when?
They've spent years what you're doing here: disparaging projects like GrapheneOS based on AOSP and making inaccurate marketing claims about their products.
> much longer then you guys
SailfishOS was launched in 2013. Our project was launched in 2014. SailfishOS is not the same as the previous open source projects they worked on without major portions of it being closed source where there's no open source usable subset like AOSP.
> They simply do not have the means or resources for their own marketing, focusing on their main goal, so what you are saying is not true.
That's outrageously false and another dishonest attack on GrapheneOS.
> Please do so in order to maintain a professional standard and the ability to respond to such false accusations.
We'll be responding to everything here with a detailed post heavily criticizing Jolla and SailfishOS with lots of sources. We'll ask others to help.
@GrapheneOS
> We'll be responding to everything here with a detailed post heavily criticizing Jolla and SailfishOS with lots of sources. We'll ask others to help.
Great! I can't wait to hear the details.
> Because I said at the beginning that you shouldn't take it as an attack, but as the opinion of a long-time, conscious user? It's ridiculous, after all.
Using our work but still engaging in dishonest attacks smearing us makes it far worse, not better. This is not the defense which you think it is. You're no longer welcome to contact us or participate in any part of our project our community until you take down the attacks and apologize. We expect that's never going to happen.
@GrapheneOS ok, but you do know that it's meego/mer based, and the same guys are doing it for much longer. Even insiders and supporters of SailfishOS remember pre-launch developer sprints.
@GrapheneOS No, I'm asking for a source that Jolla, the company, has at any point ever attacked GrapheneOS with a smear campaign. No one cares what drivel some anonymous donkey on the internet might have written about GrapheneOS, but you specifically and continuously claim that Jolla's supporters AND Jolla itself have attacked and keep attacking GrapheneOS. The supporters, sure, but who cares? But where's your source for an attack, any attack, from Jolla itself?
@GrapheneOS I take it you're either preparing a massive list full of years worth of direct quotes, links, screenshots, audio and video recordings of Jolla employees talking shit about GrapheneOS in public and even in private…
Or you got caught in a lie and have nothing to back it up and are therefore no longer replying to what should be the easiest possible request to provide 1 (one) source for your recurrent claim that Jolla itself has attacked GrapheneOS at least once with a smear campaign.
@n Jolla has spent many years disparaging every project based on the Android Open Source Project. They've made many inaccurate claims about Android and AOSP. Those are not only attacks on Google Mobile Services Android but also on many open source projects including GrapheneOS. Are you really denying that they've heavily done this over the years? It's not only their supporters doing it, it's a major part of how they promote their products/services and have done so for many years now.
> Or you got caught in a lie and have nothing to back it up and are therefore no longer replying to what should be the easiest possible request to provide 1 (one) source for your recurrent claim that Jolla itself has attacked GrapheneOS at least once with a smear campaign.
Jolla has done a smear campaign against everything based on AOSP which includes GrapheneOS. The lies in this thread are from SailfishOS supporters making inaccurate claims about it, about GrapheneOS and what we've said.
@GrapheneOS That is not a source.
@n You can read the detailed post we'll be making about Jolla and SailfishOS in the future where we'll include many sources. It will resemble the response we posted to /e/, Murena and their supporters attacking us:
Here's an example of the founder of /e/ and Murena linking harassment/libel content on a neo-nazi conspiracy site, before you claim they don't attack us:
https://archive.is/SWXPJ
https://archive.is/n4yTO
We haven't seen Jolla make similar personal attacks.
@GrapheneOS I do not care about whatever /e/ or Murena is, they were not the subject of the conversation. The subject was your claim that Jolla, the company, attacked GrapheneOS in a smear campaign on at least one occasion and your subsequent refusal to back that extraordinary claim up with any evidence whatsoever.
The source counter still remains at zero, or perhaps even minus two because you've provided two links completely irrelevant to the claim, trying to deflect the conversation.
@GrapheneOS @n quite the reverse. This thread shows you going on the offensive against Jolla, with people merely pointing out some of the errors in your statements.
I don’t see anyone smearing GrapheneOS. Frankly you’re sounding a bit paranoid.
> quite the reverse. This thread shows you going on the offensive against Jolla, with people merely pointing out some of the errors in your statements.
Jolla has spent years disparaging GrapheneOS and their community has spent years taking that further by attacking our team with libel, bullying and harassment which is visible in this thread and on the forum thread being used to brigade this thread. There's explicit support for Kiwi Farms libel/harassment content towards us there.
> I don’t see anyone smearing GrapheneOS. Frankly you’re sounding a bit paranoid.
It's very common for you folks to engage in personal attacks on our team including claiming we're crazy, insane and delusional. That's paired with explicit support for doxxing, harassment and even violence towards our team through the support you folks give to Kiwi Farms harassment content and attacks. That's explicitly being done in the SailfishOS forum thread and is not being addressed by their mods.
@GrapheneOS @n "you folks" — I'm not sure what you want to imply by that. I'm not part of Jolla. I was only even vaguely aware of GrapheneOS before this, and have no idea what Kiwi Farms even is.
That I view you as a little off your knocker, or that something is touching on a particularly sensitive nerve for some reason, is based purely on the very antagonistic messaging I see here.
I think it would be wise to take a breath and see how to frame things more constructively.
Please don't take this as an attack - it's just my opinion, based on my knowledge as a long-time user of this platform (who has also tried GraphaneOS).
Apart from user comments, can you give a specific example of the "campaign" by Jolla that you are referring to?
SailfishOS is way more secure and private by default than every android based system.
AFIK only two areas contain closed-source components - the UI layer (Silica) and Android compatibility layer (Aliendalvik). The rest of the system - whole middleware, core OS components, Mer/Nemo stack, kernel, system services - are open source.
SailfishOS is designed from the ground up to operate without Google services, without Play Services shims, and without the telemetry that comes baked into the Android ecosystem. It does not inherit the Android attack surface unless the user explicitly opts into the compatibility layer.
So no - calling SailfishOS "mostly closed source" or "worse than Android in privacy and security" is simply incorrect.
If you want to argue threat models, fine.
But at least get the basics right.
@spoofy @cyberlyra @Setok @joshua
> Apart from user comments, can you give a specific example of the "campaign" by Jolla that you are referring to?
They've spent years marketing SailfishOS by attacking projects based on the Android Open Source Project. We can make a detailed post which among other things documents this with many sources.
> SailfishOS is way more secure and private by default than every android based system.
This is extremely false. It has atrocious security vs. Android.
@spoofy @cyberlyra @Setok @joshua SailfishOS has dramatically worse privacy and security than the Android Open Source Project and iOS. Your claim that it's more private and secure is completely backwards. We have no issue writing a very detailed post going into why along with documenting their years of false marketing. That's going to be the end result of the false accusations towards us here.
You're demonstrating examples of attacks on the GrapheneOS project they've made right here.
@spoofy @cyberlyra @Setok @joshua
> SailfishOS is designed from the ground up to operate without Google services, without Play Services shims, and without the telemetry that comes baked into the Android ecosystem. It does not inherit the Android attack surface unless the user explicitly opts into the compatibility layer.
This is an extremely misleading, manipulative and inaccurate attack on the GrapheneOS project and resembles how Jolla has attacked it. There will be a response to it from us.
@spoofy @cyberlyra @Setok @joshua
> AFIK only two areas contain closed-source components - the UI layer (Silica) and Android compatibility layer (Aliendalvik).
A massive portion of what they provide themselves is closed source and the OS is not usable without it. It has no equivalent to AOSP.
> whole middleware, core OS components, Mer/Nemo stack, kernel, system services - are open source
This is nearly entirely not written by them but rather code they're using from other projects.
@spoofy @cyberlyra @Setok @joshua
> Aliendalvik
You brought up the fact that they're providing an Android app compatibility layer and clearly see it as very important. The claim that it's a clean break from the Android ecosystem is false. They're using lots of AOSP code, drivers made for Android and much more. Most people expect mainstream apps to work on any OS and they're not able to sidestep that. Why use a much less private and secure OS than AOSP underneath, which is absolutely is?
@spoofy @cyberlyra @Setok @joshua
> If you want to argue threat models, fine.
> But at least get the basics right.
It's the posts from Jolla supporters attacking GrapheneOS with many of the typical talking points they've used to disparage us for years which are not getting the basics right. The claim that their OS has better privacy or security than AOSP is outrageously false. It's far less private and secure than AOSP or iOS. We'll be writing a detailed article instead of responding here.
nope, it's not crucial, not designed and not working in that way. I'm using many native apps without even need to open Android ones, but never had problems with running those. SailfishOS is just able to run android apps in LXC containers - can be separate ones - is that a false sense of security? I don't think so. Is it better than android based fork? Of course it is, because whole lower layer is "OPEN SOURCE BASED", that I can control and manipulate it, however I want.
Can you give some examples of "mainstream android app" that's not working on SailfishOS?
@spoofy @cyberlyra @Setok @joshua
> I'm using many native apps without even need to open Android ones
Using an app platform with a dramatically less private and secure sandbox / permission model is not a positive thing.
> SailfishOS is just able to run android apps in LXC containers - can be separate ones - is that a false sense of security?
It has most of the Android privacy/security model disabled and doesn't provide a replacement.
> Is it better than android based fork?
It's far worse.
@spoofy @cyberlyra @Setok @joshua
> because whole lower layer is "OPEN SOURCE BASED", that I can control and manipulate it, however I want.
Android Open Source Project is open source. SailfishOS components specific to SailfishOS including the application and UI layer are mostly closed source. There's no equivalent to AOSP for SailfishOS. It's far less open than Android, not more. The claim that it's more open is fully backwards. Another example of an inaccurate attack they make themselves.
@GrapheneOS @cyberlyra @joshua @fabio even the statement about ‘most’ being closed source is misleading. It’s only really the Silica GUI. Pretty much everything else is open source. Except for hardware blobs, which are closed for everyone.
Not that this is a major concern for me one way or another, but once again it sounds like you have some weird beef with them and thus are spending effort trying to be negative.
@Setok @cyberlyra @joshua @fabio
> even the statement about ‘most’ being closed source is misleading. It’s only really the Silica GUI. Pretty much everything else is open source. Except for hardware blobs, which are closed for everyone.
We're talking about code specific to SailfishOS rather than the open source projects they use from elsewhere. The code they make themselves is largely closed source and not limited to the GUI. GUI and application layer code is largely what's specific to it.
@Setok @cyberlyra @joshua @fabio
> you have some weird beef with them and thus are spending effort trying to be negative.
They've spent years attacking AOSP-based projects. When people bring up GrapheneOS they've attacked it. They permit libel and harassment towards our team on their forum which is present in the thread directing people here.
Rossmann is a Kiwi Farms user who started the Kiwi Farms harassment towards us, which is explicitly being supported there.
@GrapheneOS @cyberlyra @joshua @fabio considering they themselves built and continue to contribute to many of those open source projects, that's hardly a fair differentiation.
What other parts other than the GUI would you be referring to? Parts of the hardware specific bits are (as is the case for virtually everyone, and stems from the manufacturers), and they have licensed some 3rd party components for the end user experience (though one can generally run Sailfish without). Others?
@Setok @cyberlyra @joshua @fabio
> considering they themselves built and continue to contribute to many of those open source projects, that's hardly a fair differentiation.
They also have many closed source projects including a huge portion of the GUI and application layer, which is most of what's unique to SailfishOS. The overall OS is not open source. iOS is not open source just because it uses a lot of open source code and some of their own projects such as the kernel as published as such.
@Setok @cyberlyra @joshua @fabio
> What other parts other than the GUI would you be referring to?
Someone provided an at least partial list in the forum thread you likely came from.
> Parts of the hardware specific bits are
Not what we're talking about.
> and they have licensed some 3rd party components for the end user experience
Overall GUI, application layer and many other closed source components for the high level OS are what we're talking about, not low-level code not unique to it.
@GrapheneOS @joshua @cyberlyra @fabio we can quibble the details, and it's up to users if those details are important. I'm sure your product is particularly safe on privacy. Second to none, in fact (it is, after all, your core value prop). But I hope you can thus admit that it is not factually correct to state unequivocally that they don't have sandboxing or a permission model (as you did).
"We're responding with factual information"
+
"It has incomplete optional sandboxing"
vs
"Every application, irrespective of its origin, is run in a Sailjail sandbox with an explicitly assigned set of application permissions to limit the scope of malicious activity achievable by exploiting a possible vulnerability in the application."
"We're responding with factual information"
+
"lacks secure element integration"
vs
"Sailfish OS includes a system service (extensible via vendor-specific plugins) which offers secure storage of data on behalf of client applications. [...]
Data storage is provided by vendor-specific plugins, and may include value-encrypted databases, block-encrypted databases, or hardware-backed secure storage."
This does read quite similar to "secure element integration" to me.
@troed @Setok @joshua @cyberlyra @fabio Providing very limited support for apps using a hardware keystore is not providing secure element integration in the OS. That's not providing working disk encryption for the majority of users not using a strong passphrase via secure element throttling. It's not providing verified boot or attestation for the OS. Hardware keystore also does not mean secure element. Most hardware keystores on mobile are implemented via TrustZone which is a CPU execution mode.
@troed @Setok @joshua @cyberlyra @fabio This is an optional sandbox implementation with incomplete containment of applications and an incredibly legacy approach to granting access to those. It's not a mandatory sandbox for applications, is not a modern sandbox actually properly containing those and does not provide a proper permission model. You're only proving our point by linking to these primitive and incomplete implementations of things which are playing catch-up to Android 4.4 from 2013.
How is "Every application, irrespective of its origin" optional?
@troed @Setok@attractive.space @joshua@hooray.computer @cyberlyra@hachyderm.io @fabio@manganiello.eu You should do basic research on how it's actually implemented. The containment is incomplete and optional.
@GrapheneOS @joshua @cyberlyra @fabio you were responding to someone who wasn't even talking about your product, and with a highly negative tone. Definitely looks aggressive.
Jolla has very obviously other goals than 'pure profit at any cost'.
I've been tracking Jolla since Day -1. Can't remember them ever talking about AOSP publicly. I'm sure I might've missed something. Their website doesn't mention AOSP anywhere. So hardly 'core'.
I feel you're merely shining a bad light on yourself here.
@GrapheneOS @Setok @joshua @cyberlyra @fabio graphene account posters please hear me: I am one of your full-throated fans... But why the HECK are you coming out of the gate all aggro?
I agree with many of your points, but have we not sent how fast attitude and arrogance can scare people off?
C'mon let's start out civil OK?
@john @Setok @joshua @cyberlyra @fabio There's nothing civil about the personal attacks being made towards our team by multiple people in this thread participating in Kiwi Farms harassment claiming one of us is insane, delusional, paranoid and more. That's ongoing on the SailfishOS forum which is linking here where people are referencing harassment content.
Jolla should do something about their forum being used to direct hate towards us with false claims and personal attacks towards our team.
@GrapheneOS @Setok @joshua @cyberlyra @fabio did any of he people in this thread do those things?
Post a link here if they did, I want to know!
If not, don't alienate more folks OK?
@john @Setok @joshua @cyberlyra @fabio
> did any of he people in this thread do those things?
Yes, our statements have been repeatedly misrepresented and lied about here. Our team has repeatedly been personally attacked, including references to ongoing harassment. Here's the SailfishOS forum thread directing people here:
There are multiple posts there making personal attacks with libel/bullying using one of our real names and referencing harassment content.
> Only a SMALL fraction of SFOS is closed source
No, that's wrong. Most of the OS code that's specific to SailfishOS is closed source. It's the parts which come from elsewhere and aren't specific to it which aren't closed source. Their project is mostly closed.
> It does NOT have worse privacy and seurity than Android.
No, SailfishOS objectively has extremely poor privacy and security compared to the Android Open Source Project. It brings desktop insecurity to mobile.
> I understand there are a lot of purity tests in F/OSS.
SailfishOS is closed source. It's not a small portion of their code that's closed source but rather most of the code that's specific to it. It has no equivalent to the Android Open Source Project. There isn't a subset of the OS without their proprietary services, etc. but rather it's only usable as a closed source project building on open source ones. The open code is the Linux kernel and other stuff from elsewhere.
SailfishOS objectively has extremely poor privacy and security compared to the Android Open Source Project. It's a fact.While I wholeheartedly appreciate your providing sources to your arguments, saying "It's a fact." doesn't make them any truer.
On the contrary, in my opinion it is detrimental to your argument, because that statement not only means nothing, but is also often used by people who don't have any meaningful evidence and reach for this to falsely 'reinforce' their position.
I suggest omitting statements like these, and just presenting information supporting your claim. (Like you already do :))
Anyways, just thought I'd share.
Keep up the great work!!
@me They're stating something as if it's a fact when it's the other way around. People can find lots of places to read about how mobile operating systems including the Android Open Source Project and iOS moved to a much more private and secure model for applications and the OS itself along with heavily hardening it against attacks compared to desktop operating systems. They're far from perfect but they're much better than desktop OSes. The topic has been AOSP, not Google Mobile Services Android.
They're stating something as if it's a fact when it's the other way around.It is, indeed, often the case.
Regards~
today is day 9 of our december zine giveaway! If $12 is a lot of money for you, you can use code DAY9 at checkout to get Bite Size Command Line for free.
It's a quick reference for how to use grep, sed, and all of my favourite basic Unix command line tools: https://wizardzines.com/zines/bite-size-command-line/
more on the december zine giveaway here: https://wizardzines.com/advent/
Alt...
Bite Size Command Line, by Julia Evans - Command line terms illustrated with colourful drawings of foods, such as a tart for “tar” and grapes for “grep”.
been playing dwarf fortress a bunch lately (mostly as stress relief lol) and my favourite fucking quirk of this game is that wagons used by caravans to transport goods are, by limitations of the game, living beings. they can go insane and die, leaving "wagon wood" which is technically wood but also creature remains
Alt...
Wagon
Biome
Domesticated
Attributes
Genderless
Cannot be tamed
Size
Max: 12,000 cm3
Age
Adult at: Birth
Max age: Immortal
Becomes after death
Wagon wood
Wikipedia article
@fen @ben and making use of that, I don't know if you've seen https://assertivist.itch.io/dire-wagons
@viq that's very fun :) i play classic because i'm too dumb & keyboard-pilled to play the premium version so i haven't kept up with the new modding scene that much
@fen I only heard about it :) And, uh, I'm not quite up for learning all the symbols to know what's going on screen, so I took up the premium version not that long ago.
@viq the premium version is awesome!! you give money to the devs (who frankly deserve every bit & more), and you have a much more accessible version of the best game ever made :)
@fen yeah, it's pretty :) And I think I heard most keyboard shortcuts should work the same?
But also right now I'm trying to figure out why it decides to die in half an hour or so https://social.hackerspace.pl/@viq/115690501206508053 🤷
@viq the shortcuts are quite different and they break my ~10 years of muscle memory, haha a lot of workshops are other stuff were modified too
good luck on that bug hunt, you could try and file a bug report (idk if they still accept them for the premium release)
@fen it seems they do: https://kitfoxgames.notion.site/How-to-Report-Bugs-in-Dwarf-Fortress-Updated-Nov-2023-b5e2ca19dabe408897d1c2669599b7a2
I guess I'm in the "gathering data" phase
@ross While I like the releases thing I share the concern that it moves metadata out of the repo.
I usually maintain a changelog and tag with a long description from the appropriate part of the changelog. As always it is a tradeoff. ;-)
@dwardoric @ross Hi, I would say that this sounds like a rather good issue for @forgejo itself (e.g. "external release notes", similarly to what Forgejo already has for the wiki/issue tracker/pull request to minimize the potential vendor lock-in factor)?
I'm just going to leave the link here, as I presume that either of you would be able to explain your use cases than I would on your behalf: https://codeberg.org/forgejo/forgejo/issues/new/choose ~n
@dwardoric @ross @forgejo Attempting to somewhat emulate something that everyone is used to can have its consequences—but it also leaves a lot of room to imagine how one could take individual affordances and push it beyond what they were intended for, so that they can benefit even more people (and their diverse use cases)! I think this is really one of those things that are worth thinking about! ~n
@mwl I’ve heard the legend of his yawn. It’s been told by a famous bard, spread across many lands.
oh, wow. We don't let bards in the house, I wonder how he heard? 
@mwl did I miss class you? :)
@becomingwisest The bards' guild kicked me out for the whole flamingo incident, so I'm not allowed to claim that role.
Can't blame them, really.
@mwl do flamingos have virtues? https://io.mwl.io/@mwl/115686161624654877
FUCK dude can people just fucking stop breaking every single useful open source project with their shitty AI roleplay fantasy already
related: fuck spacemacs i guess
@vv is there a list of projects that refuse ai contributions? I want to use those
@spazcosoft @vv i know #ziglang is one:
https://codeberg.org/ziglang/zig#strict-no-llm-no-ai-policy
recently found out #forgejo and #keepassxc involve ai in development which infuriates me
@outfrost @spazcosoft @vv Where does Forgejo use AI development?
@outfrost @spazcosoft @vv That's the policy that restricts the usage of AI?
@Gusted @spazcosoft @vv and allows it
Its allowed under requirements that currently not any AI software can comply with (see license requirement).
Saying that AI is involved in the development of Forgejo is not true, there's no merged code since this agreement that has been authored by AI.
To give context, a proposal to outright ban all AI (which is what I try to aim for) would've been rejected by the Forgejo community. In case you're interested in the background it's all documented in https://codeberg.org/forgejo/discussions/issues/366
@Gusted @spazcosoft @vv that part of the community frustrates me. i don't understand catering to people who want to reduce their problem solving and decision makong during contribution, and who would otherwise contribute disingenuously or not at all. that seems toxic to the project.
licence requirements never stopped any ai user from "certifying" the output as compliant.
Have you ever had to call someone by your own first name?
My first name is very rare, so I’ve only met one person with the same name in my whole life, but I’m curious about other people’s experiences.
I also wonder about people in romantic relationships that have the same first name. That must feel weird 🤔
I just read something about being around people whose name is your deadname and how that’s a surreal experience. That’s so interesting!
Boosts and comments are welcome 🤗
| I’ve had a relationship with someone with my name: | 3 |
| I’ve had friends with my name: | 47 |
| It’s happened sometimes: | 61 |
| I’ve never called anyone by my own name: | 28 |
@Blanche my name (which is Polish for Simon) used to be rather uncommon in my childhood, but become more popular in younger generations, so I sometimes get startled by someone calling "Szymon!" in the street and not meaning me…
As for deadnames – I frequent a Telegram channel where three men shared the same first name; for one of them it is a deadname now… @agturcz is it in any way surreal to you?
BTW on the same channel five (!) other men share the name Michał and five pairs of women share names (Agata, Agnieszka, Aneta, Ewa, Joanna) and it very seldom leads to misunderstandings, though we usually call them by nicknames, just in case.
@blotosmetek @Blanche @agturcz for part of my primary school, if a boy say "Marcin" (Martin), if a girl say "Kasia"(Kate), and you'll have about 50% success rate, because that covered 7 out of 15 people in the class.
Also I'm joking half the people I know are Piotr (Peter), though right now at work apparently you don't have to be named some form of Bart, but it clearly helps.
@blotosmetek @Blanche @agturcz oh, yeah, also, do you know those, uh, jokes or whatnot, where you have some words, and you swap the beginnings of them with each other? At some point there was someone whose full name was that to mine.
@blotosmetek
I guess more like Piotr Janowski and Jatr Pienawski 🤔 Easy enough separately, but put them close together and they start bleeding into each other 😂
@Blanche @agturcz
It's still there. #n4sa2e
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"Networking for System Administrators, 2nd ed" is #1 in new Windows Administration releases
i appreciate how this is going to break in 2 years (and it already is on firefox) but it was made regardless. a unique kind of flash player :3
This is the third time this year that Quad9 is having issues with not resolving a legitimate domain, presumably due to their malware filter. Very unfortunate.
We now have experimental support for the Pixel 10, Pixel 10 Pro, Pixel 10 Pro XL and Pixel 10 Pro Fold.
Our initial 2025112500 release for these is available through our web installer or releases page on our staging site:
https://staging.grapheneos.org/install/web
https://staging.grapheneos.org/releases#devices
Amazing work @GrapheneOS especially considering the current pressure you're under.
I'll be one happy experimental user shortly! 🎉
@GrapheneOS GrapheneOS the GOAT. I hope you earn some money at Proton Fundraiser 2025 to help fund the amazing work you guys are making to society
@GrapheneOS Why buy Pixel device now rather than wait for GrapheneOS' official device?
Any #deGoogle folks actually going to buy Pixel for this or wait for official device?
@GrapheneOS so if I understand this correctly, I can just use my pixel 10 and install the experimental version of GraphinOS exactly in the same way as I have done all the final releases on previous phones?
@Okuna Yes, and you can update from it to future non-experimental releases. Our experimental releases are not stable yet and need fixes or workarounds implemented for multiple upstream memory corruption bugs uncovered by hardware memory tagging and UBSan. We're working on addressing the 3 issues uncovered by those already which will make it a lot more stable.
Wooooohooo.
So google finally pushed the QPR1 stuff to the AOSP repo?
Thank you, i will flash tomorrow :p
@overflo Yes, Android 16 QPR1 was pushed to AOSP this month. Our most recent 2 releases were our migration to Android 16 QPR1 which we've shipped across all of the already supported devices. Once we got that into a solid state, we moved on to focusing on Pixel 10 support which is now available in an experimental state. There are 3 upstream memory corruption bugs on the Pixel 10 detected by our exploit protections which have been reported and we need to resolve those to make it more stable.
@GrapheneOS oh boy you are doing sooo fine.
Thank you! 🥰
Will there be graphene devs around at #39c3 so i can give you beer or mate or anything else?
ari » 🌐
@ar@is-a.cat
qemu-user-emu + binfmt misc is cursed:
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❯ cat /proc/cpuinfo | head -n 10
processor : 0
vendor_id : AuthenticAMD
cpu family : 25
model : 33
model name : AMD Ryzen 9 5950X 16-Core Processor
stepping : 0
microcode : 0xa201016
cpu MHz : 1746.460
cache size : 512 KB
physical id : 0
❯ file /nix/store/52017j1v7hn57p8j0gblsw80x6phd78k-coreutils-full-9.7/bin/coreutils
/nix/store/52017j1v7hn57p8j0gblsw80x6phd78k-coreutils-full-9.7/bin/coreutils: ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, ARM aarch64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /nix/store/cnw00vg7w28qsn4jc6vxbwlignc35w4n-glibc-2.40-66/lib/ld-linux-aarch64.so.1, BuildID[sha1]=99c70324c5cb1ba58465bf8d3d8fd84d302fc86c, for GNU/Linux 3.10.0, not stripped
❯ /nix/store/52017j1v7hn57p8j0gblsw80x6phd78k-coreutils-full-9.7/bin/coreutils --coreutils-prog=cat /proc/cpuinfo | head -n 10
processor : 0
model name : ARMv8 Processor rev 0 (v8l)
BogoMIPS : 100.00
Features : fp asimd aes pmull sha1 sha2 crc32 atomics fphp asimdhp cpuid asimdrdm jscvt fcma lrcpc dcpop sha3 sm3 sm4 asimddp sha512 sve asimdfhm dit uscat ilrcpc flagm sb paca pacg dcpodp sve2 sveaes svepmull svebitperm svesha3 svesm4 flagm2 frint svei8mm svef32mm svef64mm svebf16 i8mm bf16 rng bti mte mte3 sme smei16i64 smef64f64 smei8i32 smef16f32 smeb16f32 smef32f32 smefa64 sve2p1 sme2 sme2p1 smei16i32 smebi32i32 smeb16b16 smef16f16 mops hbc sveb16b16
CPU implementer : 0x00
CPU architecture: 8
CPU variant : 0x0
CPU part : 0x051
CPU revision : 0
ari » 🌐
@ar@is-a.cat
❯ /nix/store/52017j1v7hn57p8j0gblsw80x6phd78k-coreutils-full-9.7/bin/uptime
13:56:43 up 20410 days 1:03, 0 users, load average: 0.90, 0.96, 0.97I pozbyłem się mojego pseudo desktopu, teraz moim desktopem będzie to.
Alt...
Zamknięty laptop leżący na półce podparty rolką izolacji. Do laptopa wpięte są kable USB-C i HDMI.
jestem pozytywnie zaskoczony że ten nie pierwszej nowości laptop za którego nie dałem zbyt dużo, bez problemu uciąga dwa monitory 1440p
AMD to potrafi we wbudowane GPU
@stfn Panie, Raspberry Pi potrafi uciągnąć 2 ekrany 4K…😅
Dla takiego laptopa to powinna być pestka…
@ssamulczyk no w sumie fakt
@stfn Musiałbym kiedyś sprawdzić czy moja 7900XT uciągnie wszystkie porty jakie ma i ile to będzie prądu żreć…😅
@ssamulczyk pewnie ma trzy DP i jedno HDMI?
@stfn 2 DP I 2 HDMi
@ssamulczyk @stfn DP można chainować XD
@me musiałem znaleźć, to się nazywa "DisplayPort Multi-Stream Transport (MST)", opisane na przykład tutaj https://www.anker.com/blogs/hubs-and-docks/how-to-daisy-chain-monitors-with-displayport
Nowoczesny fork coreutils, który zastępuje przestarzałą odpowiedź "nie" — opcją "może później". I zapętla się, dopóki nie ulegniesz.
Alt...
Comic panel of a flustered girl sitting on a guy's lap, while he gets ready to type something on a pc keyboard. The girl says: "Baby, you can touch me already.", to which he responds: "Hold on a sec! This guy on the Internet uses _systemd_ as his init system."
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David Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*) » 🌐
@david_chisnall@infosec.exchange
The FreeBSD platform was merged into the OCI runtime spec!
FreeBSD is now an official target for OCI containers (it’s been working in Podman as an unofficial target for a while).
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